On your marks, get set-feedback!

The first directed time meetings of 2015 have given faculties the opportunity to discuss our new BSG assessment system and to moderate/share reflections and to return to the ineradicable theme of feedback and marking. All colleagues have been involved in the individual book monitoring process and good practice has already been shared in internal and external blogs. Our Tuesday night meetings provided the chance for subject leaders to highlight the best practice that they had observed in the book scrutiny and for faculty members to bring the ideas that they have been most pleased with to show their colleagues. They were asked to bring to their respective tables, examples which matched the following criteria;

  • Best marking innovation/idea trialled
  • Best/numeracy SPaG marking
  • Best fast feedback/time saving but effective marking
  • Best dialogue back from students/impact of students successfully achieving feedback given [this doesn’t have to be marked by you]
  • Best self/peer critique
  • Best use of DIRT
  • Most challenging feedback/marking
  • Best differentiated marking
  • Best exam prep
  • Owt else you really like and others should know about

All faculty colleagues should have examples submitted for sharing.

These are areas we have been working on as a school and examples are constantly shared to avoid any hints of inconsistency within subjects or across the whole school. Students are entitled to high quality feedback that best supports their learning in every classroom in this school. I don‘t like the words ‘non-negotiable’ but this is as near as it gets! What is negotiable and open to professional choice is how our school policy is adapted to suit individual and subjects. I’ve explained this and shared so many examples previously of what our ‘bottom line’ is and how colleagues have been trialling different strategies to find the best ones that match whole school and individual/subject/class learning needs. It is relatively easy, in any school, to find wonderful examples of amazing feedback from some teachers-what it isn’t easy to do is to find wonderful examples from EVERY teacher including SLT-this is just one of the ways that we are trying to create a collaborative environment to allow great marking and feedback to be humanly possible.

Every teacher in MCHS has contributed to this compilation/recent marking blogs.

http://blog.meolscophighschool.co.uk/?cat=15  Some of our feedback/marking ideas are here but most blogs have feedback examples in them-it’s that important!

Provided that the feedback is delivered appropriately and quickly, orally or written, as the students are learning, in the ‘old’ written way after the lesson, that it makes them think and gives them more work to do than the teacher giving it, that they have time to check, understand, respond successfully, be verified, get DIRTy, only receive the same feedback once  AND their learning improves as a result and both teacher and student can provide the evidence of this and convince me that the learning has ‘stuck’-I’m a happy man.

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Consequently there are a whole range of shared tactics that may suit one MCHS teacher but not another; however it is crucial for our professional development that we provide as many different internal and external examples as possible and increasingly consult the research which may suggest the comparative validity of the examples. Student voice should also be consulted and this will appear in our next long blog.

Our SCIENCE faculty regularly scrutinise books in their timetable planning meetings and I fed-back on their 30 second marking trial in an earlier blog.

http://blog.meolscophighschool.co.uk/?p=1187

These are some of their latest examples.

Best marking innovation/idea trialled

Coloured pens to speed up marking, highlight reflection and improvements – CM but used as standard across dept

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FD use of coloured pens

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Best/numeracy SPaG marking

Numeracy self-marking to emphasise distribution of marks and keyword focus. CM

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Best fast feedback/time saving but effective marking

Students complete work / peer or self-assess / redraft / verify before final teacher check. HS

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Best dialogue back from students/impact of students successfully achieving feedback given [this doesn’t have to be marked by you]

WS Self critique after GCSE module exam, reflection about what when well and areas for improvement. Followed up by teacher advice.

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Best self/peer critique

First red section is self-assessment using a mark scheme, then a redraft to show improvement. Second page is peer assessment critique.

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HW

Peer assessment, then a redraft based on suggested improvement, then teacher question to further extend.

Best use of DIRT

PJ

Example of DIRT shown below. Student answered an open ended question and after initial marking was pushed further to describe the function of each part of the cell. They responded and teacher asked them a further question to be answered.

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Best exam prep

RM’s students identified the topics they found most difficult leading up to the exam. Their partner then wrote three challenging questions on this topic, which was then peer assessed, improved, and peer verified.

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RE-DRAFTING-IF IT ISN’T EXCELLENT-DON’T GIVE IT IN FOR FINAL MARKING!

You can see that the scientists have been trying their best to encourage re-drafting and encouraging signs across the school have been seen in our monitoring-not popular with the students but important to keep pushing ‘excellence’ as par for the course when the books are handed in for their final mark. Some teachers have trialled using notebooks-this is from Katie Fleetwood’s book scrutiny’

How have you tried to get them to give you ‘nearly perfect’ work in for marking/used re-drafting?

Draft work books for example with year 9 story they had to redraft work to ensure it was the best it could be. Quality of work finally produced was much higher than initially.

DIRT provides the ideal time for this as Sarah Cunliffe explained in her book scrutiny;

How have you tried to get them to give you ‘nearly perfect’ work in for marking/used re-drafting?

Pupils when completing DIRT tend to improve their work to a higher standard which either probes the sub-text at a deeper level or addresses another specific assessment criteria

Other methods of improving answers-re-drafting shorter exam style questions were explained by Martin Davis in his book scrutiny.

How have you tried to get them to give you ‘nearly perfect’ work in for marking/used re-drafting?

We use mark schemes to help students see what “perfect” looks like. Students then peer assess and provide ways to help reach full marks. We also discuss common misconceptions/mistakes as a class to help during DIRT.

Students are encouraged in DIRT to reach full marks using the feedback.

The use of self and peer critique to re-draft is beginning to work well and I saw a glorious example in Sophie McQueenie’s very able year 11 drama class when the students peer critiqued using dot marking. They left dots on the page where they felt one of the key criteria for achieving top drama marks had been missed-no clues were given and the students then had to re-read their work and find their error. They were then given a timed period to re-draft incorporating their response to the feedback before re-submitting to their peer and then Miss.

I did spot WWW and EBI in the science examples and was talking this week to a colleague [I can’t recall who-there’s a surprise!!] and asking that they make sure the students add an example and impact to Even Better If [Example, Impact of my suggestion will be…] and What Went Well [Impact this had on your learning] Just suggestions!

Our MFL faculty sent me their examples.

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For a more detailed account of peer critique in MFL, last January the second half of this blog tells more and shares examples.http://blog.meolscophighschool.co.uk/?p=281

Our PERFORMING ARTS trio explained their ideas in some detail and added lots of photos to display their feedback in action.

Best Marking innovation/idea trialled:

  • New ‘sticker’ sheets in drama are effective during peer/self/teacher assessment. Everything is structured and shapes feedback well pushing students to include key vocabulary. Everything is contained on one sheet and can be referred back to during class activities.
  • Use of ‘hi five’ for plenaries acts as a clear summary of learning which supports self and teacher assessment and saves both time when marking/doing check backs. Progress star for evaluation at end of topic is also a clear and concise and saves time.

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Best Feedback/time saving but effective marking:

  • Cover sheets have been redesigned in music to make explicit use of ‘DIRT’ through the acronym ‘SPADE’ and is clearly structured featuring tick boxes making check backs and marking much faster. Also progress star/hi five as mentioned above make feedback clear, concise and structured but are so clearly laid out that it is saving students and teachers time.

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Best dialogue back from students:

  • Year 11 drama books making good use of ‘dot’ marking and redrafting, making comments about the specific gaps in exam questions which have been identified through use of assessment criteria. Comments are addressed immediately by students who write the missing information out again underneath it. Feedback received is written again at the top of next piece of work to remind them to include it next time.

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  • Feedback sheets done with year 10 music during one to ones filled in collaboratively to agree specific targets following self-assessment.

Best self/peer critique:

  • Most feedback is done verbally in KS3, but use of assessment mats in music and drama has resulted in excellent use of vocabulary that is structured into sentences.
  • KS3 music books feature ‘2 stars and a wish’ peer assessment which is supported by the mats and demonstrates excellent clear, music specific feedback regarding performances and composition. Year 9 have identified specific features such as strong leader, clear structure and creation of polyrhythm through syncopated ostinatos.

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Best Use of DIRT:

  • DIRT is used after assessment and in review lessons in both drama and music. In music responses are recorded in books on the cover sheets using ‘SPADE’ and respond directly to feedback given by teacher. All require supporting evidence and must be signed, dated and verified.
  • Use of dot marking with year 11 drama has required ‘DIRT’ in order to decode the dots which do not use a key. They need time to revisit the set structures and decide what is missing.

Most challenging Feedback/marking:

  • Year 11 drama must now always check they have included the ‘top five’ and cannot achieve band one without these key words. They are being pushed to include higher level details from the A Level specification which detail how the performance shows time/place as well as explaining the intentions of the character. Year 10 are doing this but also making reference to A Level practitioners.
  • Year 10 music are being pushed to include modulations and key changes in compositions which is a higher level expectation of compositions. Marking and feedback is very specific and detailed when asking for features to be included/developed. ‘DIRT’ is essential for students to understand and implement these ideas.

Best Differentiated Marking:

  • Targets set in music are differentiated between upper and lower sets in accordance with the new assessment criteria (B/S/G) to make them achievable. Challenge is increased higher up the sets.
  • Year 11 drama marking shows evidence of more specific detailed support given to weaker students for exam prep, with structures, sentence starters and scaffolding used.

Best Exam Prep:

  • AB’s feedback from performance assessments to year 10 is specific and detailed, addressing all 3 areas of the criteria with points for improvements and suggestions for next time. Student’s feedback to this is clear and demonstrates understanding. Furthermore, the more harsh feedback still preserves their feelings!
  • Drama feedback at KS4 for the written exam uses specific terminology acronyms such as ‘top 5’ to prompt students to include key words and ‘SPATCA/SFASWA/SCAMPER’ to supporting structuring of exam questions.

Adele’s lesson study

Katrina and I observed Adele’s lesson study where she introduced her Modulation Toolkit and we saw the power of peer critique providing feedback as the students worked so that they could use each other’s advice to produce a quite difficult composition task. The faculty are trying to introduce A level concepts into their G.C.S.E. lessons to add additional challenge and aspiration-modulation, so they tell me, is a tough challenge! The students worked on their own task on the tables, before the peers critiqued the work, leaving advice, which was then used to help them produce the composition on the manuscript. [think I’ve got that right-I’m just a drummer!]

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Not to be outdone in Katrina’s return leg she used the drama studio floor as a giant Pinterest Board and again the students could add their own peer critique in a very physical and engaging way-fast intervention as they were working and then acted upon. The peer critique critiqued peer critique of the latest show-if you see what I mean!

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Our leading exponents of using technology to support all aspects of feedback are ICT and business studies. Tim and Claudio shared these current in initiatives with us.

Best marking innovation/idea trialled

Extensive use of Edmodo.

Best fast feedback/time saving but effective marking

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Use of badges in edmodo to deliver feedback for each topic. Highlighting labels so as it is easy to pick up on what they need to do to progress further.

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This is an example of a class. It shows clearly which students have completed which sections and that they have been awarded a badge.

Best dialogue back from students/impact of students successfully achieving feedback given [this doesn’t have to be marked by you]

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We have used Edmodo so as the students can upload their work, I can look at it and review it and then comment on it. This gives the students the oportunity to update their work and upload the latest version with amendments. The grading shows what they can achieve and what they have achieved.

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This edmodo conversation is about feedback to the marking that teachers have done for their work.

Best self/peer critique

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Students are able to post to the wall there work electronically. From there all students in the class are able to comment on the work. Therefore 30 students could post work at the same time and entire group giving mass feedback on all of the work at the same time.

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We have also been using the AB Tutor software to exhibit students work to their peers in lesson time this has proved very popular when students critique their peers work. It is also a great way of getting instantaneous feedback.

Best use of DIRT

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This is a screenshot of a student’s peer assessment of another students work, I have given them the criteria to think about when evaluating their peers work but asked the students to write down anything that they though was a reasonable review point.

Best exam prep

51This is a revision booklet we are trialling for Year 11 revision. The students are cutting images from past paper questions and using these to make notes on the specific subject matter.

And from Colin in BUSINESS STUDIES.

Year 11 mocks GCSE Business Studies unit 3 – class intervention and book monitoring

Context

Students underperformed in the following areas in unit 3:

Topic knowledge: Sources of finance

Exam skills: 10 Markers, not focusing on 4 factors or completing a sufficient conclusion.

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Solution

I planned an interactive 10 marker Business problem on sources of finance that students had to tackle in groups.

Stage 1

Students cut up the case study and put into correct categories:

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Stage 2

They complete a suitable 10 mark question on google docs using suitable command words.  

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Stage 3

Students had to come to a Judgement in group’s using the ‘flexible thinking 10 maker scheme’ and use the Business Frisbee to go through the 10 maker scheme.

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Stage 4

Students complete their own responses to the question in google docs

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Stage 5

Students receive peer feedback on the comment option in google docs and then teacher feedback in 10 marker flexible sheets. The Focus is on considering the upsides and downsides of 4 factors (4 sources of finance) and improving conclusions.

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Stage 6

Students reflect on their progress on the interactive tracking sheet on Moodle

Stage 7

Student make improvements using my feedback and show improvements on progress sheets

All Students now have the grade boundaries for each unit at the front of their folders so they know what to aim for. It also demonstrates how gaining 10 marks would help them make marginal gains towards their overall unit 3 final mark!

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Year 11 mocks GCSE Business Studies unit 2 – Controlled assessment marking

All students controlled assessment have been marked. A new Assessment sheet has been used that also includes Junes 2014 grade boundaries (see below)

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Unit 1 multiple choice self and peer feedback

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Unit 3 Extended answer 6 markers [all class can see each other’s Q/A and ‘buddy’ up for peer support

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End of unit student tracking sheet [shared with students]

Deleted for external blog

Student tracking sheet [self-critique]

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Peer assess Business Buddy Moodle [peer critique]

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PIC guide to support reading and selecting relevant information, re-drafting FAIL

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PE

The Achilles heel of our marking and written feedback some years ago was the PE department-it was new to them, as was classroom teaching and the theory aspect of their G.C.S.E. examinations was also proving to be much weaker than their practical work. Their written feedback and advice needed to support their theory lessons as well, if not better, than their oral feedback supported the excellent achievements in the practical elements. Tom and I have spoken at length about how we can use DIRT in theory lessons to reinforce feedback received in practical lessons and we discussed much more!

You make the point that much of the feedback that needs checking by the students to see that it has been met is often placed in the context of practical sport so my suggestion would be to;

  • Remind the students at the beginning of their practical session to recall their SPADE feedback [if applicable] and to work on it in the lesson.
  • The next time that you have theory-begin with DIRT that asks them to recap on their successful [or not] achievement of their feedback in their last practical lesson-you kill two birds with 1 stone then. If you wanted to use DIRT to go over the verbal feedback given in the practical lesson only in the next theory lesson-that also would be a great chance to recall and consider and mix practical with theory. OR you could set a task at the end of your theory lesson in your spade that they have to consider on the next practical and feedback in the next theory!
  • Get the students to respond to your questions in a different coloured pen-not just so I can work out if they are answering your question but a] it makes it important and their brain might just recall their answer better [dodgy science but possible] b] it makes it easier for them to pick out key bits to revise c] If you use a different coloured pen again for peer assessment-you can really identify quickly the different aspects of marking when you are monitoring your faculty books and the students like the different pens and respond well!
  • You said you set different questions BUT are they differentiated deliberately? Could I tell by your questioning who were your most able? Or could I work out which aspects of the course the individual was struggling with?
  • You mentioned peer assessing of exam papers-are they then adding on peer suggestions/advice for making the marks up to the full quota [in their different coloured pens!] Look at the hist/geog examples of how, for instance, if a student got 4 marks-the peer suggests how to get the missing 2 to get full marks-the student responds with their answer and the peer and teacher can check. You may do this.
  • If you get the students to associate re-drafting with the marginal gains needed in practical lessons to achieve their best performance that may help with the psychology of it. Nothing should be given to you that isn’t almost excellent-they don’t like re-drafting-it’s hard work-but once their marks begin to improve and you add in peer support, they should respond better.
  • SPaG doesn’t amount to many marks but they might cost a grade and just be aware that spelling key words correctly will count for nothing if basic SPaG is incorrect-it is their/there that marks are usually lost!

PE are determined to provide the very best that they can in the classrooms and in practical sessions and they have been involved in lesson study development of peer critique [oral feedback] and have deliberately chosen their theory lessons to be observed in both appraisal, lesson study and peer observations and have always sought advice and feedback re their marking-Teacher Growth Mind-Set in action. They display their CPD foci and targets clearly so others can support and celebrate the success and development of each other.

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Peer critique with specific feedback.

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Are you PROUD?

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Rosie’s dance exam question advice-used as self/peer critique.

Below, Sam’s Xmas with starters, mains and Xmas pud to support exam question structure.

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Rosie PEER assessing with feedback and highlighted key areas of dance before verifying and commenting briefly.

 

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Rosie and Aaron’s lesson study peer critique mat.

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PE’s new SPADE and BUCKET marking showing dialogue, DIRT and successful completion of feedback.

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I’ve shared quite a lot of the HUMANITIES faculty feedback and marking of late-the latest one being in a blog on NQTs and peer critique-examples of maths , history and geography and just before Xmas; Peaky Humanities Blinders with more history and geography.

http://blog.meolscophighschool.co.uk/?p=1459

http://blog.meolscophighschool.co.uk/?p=1383

I’m not biased of course but they do give me the chance to share my own marking and feedback tactics in context, for all to see-as I should do! I didn’t go to their meetings so they had a bit of peace and didn’t feel under pressure and have to thank Martin, in the absence of the 2 new mums, in organising the 3 NQTs and their sharing of their M and F. These are their examples.

Humanities Marking Examples

GT

Peer Critique – Developing pupil skills to argue against a defended position.

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Dot Marking – Focus on improving SPAG in lower ability levels.

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Dialogue – Peer Assess, Teacher Assess and DIRT feedback and replies. [purple for peer, green teacher, red DIRT self-response

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Use of DIRT and Targeted questioning to improve and test pupils understanding. [BSG criteria being used-teacher –green pen, student-purple]

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Target Setting – Peer and self-target setting

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Purple Pen of Progress – Dialogue with pupils/teacher and purple pen to make improvements.

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Redrafting – Recompleting work to improve their work and regarded.

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Peer Verification – Across KS4-KS4 and low to high ability

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Peer Assessment for Assessments using Success Criteria

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HY

Pupil Response to DIRT questioning

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Dialogue with pupils to extend answers and develop knowledge.

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Peer assessment on exam question – even after getting 6/6 always further developing answers. Peers must give specific advice/examples

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More peer assessment after numerous GCSE questions.

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Poor peer feedback – response to my marking shows how much more answer could be developed by pupils.

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TM

KS3 books – Before starting their written assessments pupils reflected on their last piece of written work and have given themselves a target of how they could achieve gold. They were encouraged to look back at this with the success criteria throughout their assessment to have a clear idea of how to succeed. This worked well and encouraged pupils to focus on their weaknesses from the previous assessment.

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A variety of dialogues completed during DIRT. The use of questioning allows pupils to develop their answers.

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Peer and self-assessment

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MD

Self-Assessment of strengths- chance to argue over their grade and “sell” work to me

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Continuation of per verification at KS4- Adding in literacy marking and debate over grades for each exam style Q

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Specific feedback which links to questioning- DIRT time verified by teacher/peer

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English

Sarah collated a variety of different examples from her other English colleagues. Very artistic Sarah!

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Laura has used a nice DIRT idea borrowed from twitter.

 

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My MATHEMATICS colleagues are always trying to find the most appropriate written and oral feedback strategies for their different classes, and individuals within them. They have focused their lesson studies on their most and least able and are now considering their level 4 on entry students, especially disadvantaged ones, to ensure that they make comparable progress with their other students. Of equal importance will be their response in their planning, teaching and feedback to the changes in the maths curriculum and G.C.S.E.-a blog on its own!

  • Best marking innovation/idea trialled

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Setting peer designed questions

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  • Best/numeracy SPaG marking

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  • Best fast feedback/time saving but effective marking

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  • Best dialogue back from students/impact of students successfully achieving feedback given [this doesn’t have to be marked by you]

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  • Best self/peer critique

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  • Best use of DIRT
  • Tackling issues from homework

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  • Most challenging feedback/marking

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  • Best differentiated marking

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  • Best exam prep

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  • Owt else you really like and others should know about

New challenge questions

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New problem solving question with year 9 to help develop fluency

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New Peer marking WWW and EBI

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Unfortunately RE Jen is poorly at the moment-get well soon-so I’ll share RE’’s marking later on. Some colourful examples from our ART/DESIGN TECHNOLOGY faculty next.

Examples from Josie;

Year 7 – Those Little Things

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Year 8 – Train Tickets

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Year 8 – Peer Assessment

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Year 9 Those Little Things focussed feedback and DIRT

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Some G.C.S.E examples of sharing the exam criteria, teacher feedback and dialogue from Katie.

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One of the big issues with the more practical subjects is that much of the feedback given is verbal-as the students are working, the teacher will move around intervening when appropriate and giving feedback to help with any misconceptions, raising questions about how improvements could be made, my favourite questions of challenging them as to why ‘have you done it this way, can you think of a different way, where can you take your learning next’ and so on and so on. This hopefully happens in every lesson-the best kind of feedback is quick intervention that directly impacts on the learning NOW-with time to reflect for the students on their intervention in DIRT. It isn’t possible to keep a record of all of this valuable teacher or peer feedback by writing everything down-the moment may be lost then anyway and the flow of the lesson interrupted and if the recording of verbal feedback is just to keep Jonesy or Ofsted happy when books are monitored-it probably isn’t being done for the right reason and won’t be effective!

Some colleagues do use verbal feedback stampers-I will buy them and recommend they are used to help the students recall key feedback points at the end of the lesson so that next lesson they can check them and action them. They can evidence their successful response to their feedback to self, peer or teacher at an appropriate time-there is another stamper for this to save time. This type of fast feedback positive intervention seems a sensible approach to support both the teacher workload and student learning and fits in with our overall feedback policy.

Tony gave me a couple of examples of a year 7 student demonstrating this in action and commented that;

Ongoing verbal feedback is instigated by teacher backed up with ‘teacher verified’ and ‘verbal feedback given’ stampers. This is used every lesson and guides students towards areas that they can further improve – marginal gains. Students have the opportunity to address the feedback requests and guidance through teacher verbal feedback.  They spend this time working with peers making improvements to the quality of their work and asking questions of each other to help solve problems. Students self and peer assess their work in practical projects and in project work.

Students often write on the back of their peers work, setting targets for improvement which are then acted on.

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Aimee in food technology sent some of her recent self and peer BSG critique examples to share.

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There are so many examples but, of course, the selection only scrapes the surface of the written and oral feedback from teachers, peers and self that happens on a daily basis. Some of the other blogs have far more detailed examples from individuals or faculties and the idea is if you spot something that interests you-you need to go and ask to find out more! I am interested in the fastest most effective strategies to ease workload but I’m also aware of the potential, power of specific focused feedback and marking in areas of learning that both internal and external data has shown to be under-performing. If Hattie and others are right about the effect sizes of effective feedback, then we have to bear this in mind when we are considering our intervention tactics to ensure that progress of all cohorts and all subjects is constantly above the expected/more than expected measures for national progress. If we have thoughts about being a great school [and why shouldn’t we!] we have to beat such targets in every aspect of RAISE [we almost did] and have to aim in all areas to help ‘disadvantaged’ students equal or beat the other student grades.

Leon, in the governors’ curriculum meeting, talked about building a staff +1 mind-set, in terms of adding the magical 1 grade above expected progress-the staff were delighted when he showed the fruits of their work in the lovely green of RAISE but we know that in English, our level 5 students need attention, in maths, our L4 students were comparatively weak and other subject such as PE will have spotted anything at all that resembles a slight dip [PE A*/A] Beginning in year 7, we need to plan to use our marking and feedback to immediately support our areas for improvement-I’m not sure that we’ve thought as strategically as this before-perhaps we should?

Colleagues are certainly sharing their progress matrices with students and a valid suggestions to get from green to purple, as the students say, is to act on great teacher feedback-let’s give it them whilst at the same time digging deeper with some of our research into the impact of our marking and its contribution to the learning progress that at the moment is pleasing, but still needs to climb above +1! Imagine the celebrations we could have if we pull that off for our students!

They also have to play their part in adopting the GM that welcomes critique and seeks out and acts on the excellent advice they are being given. All our hard work will count for nowt, if they don’t engage in the dialogue, self and peer critique, DIRT etc. that they are being asked to. More of how we can continue to develop their role and what exactly their opinions are on effective marking and feedback will be in the next big blog. I’ve already began ‘walking’ and this morning began to gather student evidence and I offer a quick preview from the delightful Arwen in year 7 who in response to my question,

“Show me/tell me about an example of when you have received feedback from your teacher and you have responded with your own target and successfully achieved the advice given.”

Arwen chose this example from Rachael H in English and was able to tell me how she successfully met Rachael’s wish and Arwen’s own action points [sentence starters] in a later piece of work. Not sure of “well-spelt” but I got the gist and enjoyed a very informative morning with students representing all of our English teachers. Lots more to come and vital that the students are constantly involved in the feedback discussions.

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